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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 7:33 am 
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I wish I could write as well as you Greg. (Those were the days...)

Anyway, I think you hit the nail right on the head.

Pick up the book, <i>The Five Thousand Year Leap</i> by W. Cleon Skousen,
Part Two, Fourth Principle. Read it. I dare ya. In fact, this is a book I'd love to throw Banksy's way, if he'd take the time to read it...

~S


Miner Greg wrote:
Government control has been a big problem with states like NJ, CA, NY, etc. face and has been one of the biggest problems with this nation. If you look at the data, the states with the highest taxes are the states which are having the most money problems. And they counteract that by raising the taxes further! I personally believe the republican party is not conservative enough and that is the reason they lost the last presidential election.

What you are mostly concerned with is Religious conservatism which is a complete different topic. While I can tell you don't agree, Religious conservatism is a very small aspect of any government policy today in this country and I would prefer it taken out of politics all together. Unfortunately both Democrats and the media won't let it happen, that's the problem. The only Religious conservatism policies that really exist, which doesn't entirely exist because of religious values, is abortion and the definition of marriage. Both are NOT managed or restricted at all in today's federal policy. So I don't understand why anyone even brings this up. It is not a federal crime for a gay couple to marry and it is not a federal crime to have an abortion. On the marriage issue, both Obama and McCain were against gay marriage, but both were also against making a federal policy on it. There are no laws which enforce teaching creationism, but the liberal party tries to pass laws preventing people from supporting religious parties. If someone wants to celebrate Christmas, they should be able to. If a city wants to put up a Christmas display in front of their municipal building, why create a law to stop them? As per the founding fathers, the purpose of separating Church and State was to protect the Churches from the State. Preventing the government from taking control and enforcing laws on them on religious establishments. Not the other way around.

Civil rights, conservative policy generally dictates a hands off approach on managing these. Thus as in many conservative states, there generally are less laws preventing people from doing what they want to do. Liberal policy on civil rights is to generally allow the government to make the choice for you on what is good for you or not. Thus gun rights, fireworks, pumping your own gas, smoking in bars, most of the restriction that cause headaches today.

Fiscally, conservative policy is generally an open market solution to allow the market to dictate how things should be. If people want to buy SUV's, let them buy SUV's. If people want electric cars, let people decide on their own if they want them. If companies want to merge, buy each other out, let them. If the companies mis-manage their-selves, let them fail. Another company who is fiscally conservative would buy the failing company out and make a better company out of the failure. Liberal fiscal policy generally has been to let the government in there to make and control market. As we've seen with forcing banks to giving money out to people to buy a home who can't afford it, the government bailouts and in history, this hasn't been too successful.

As per legality of drugs, you'd expect expect the conservative party to be more in support of it with the generally hands off approach, but most parties are against it. Only the green party really supports it. The Democrat party does not.

Miner Greg

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 1:24 pm 
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You raise a lot of great points Greg and I don't disagree with all of it. But again, I am talking specifically about social conservatism, which is a threat not only to our civil rights but to the advancement of society. You cannot advance as a society when your education system teaches you to ignore science, reject evolution, and live under strict government control. Overspending is an entirely different issue -- both the right and the left overspend. California is in one of the biggest debts (if not the biggest debt) this nation has seen and Schwarzenneger is a Republican governor! Sure, it may not be entirely his fault, but I was never trying to make a point that the left doesn't overspend. When you say, "I personally believe the republican party is not conservative enough..." if you are referring to fiscal conservatism (overspending), then I agree with you. But overall the modern day Republican party is not that fiscally conservative, just look at how much the national debt rose under 8 years of Bush.

You are correct, I am very concerned with religious conservatism and unfortunately it is not a completely different topic from modern day conservatism. Modern day conservatism incorporates and embraces these religious conservatist views. You don't get one without the other. Do you really think someone who believes the earth is 6,000 years old has the intellect required to lead this country through the 21st century? Or as Sarah Palin says, that the Iraq war is an act of God? I disagree with any laws preventing anyone from displaying a Christmas tree publicly. To me its not even an issue about religion but about freedom of speech. But then the same municipal building should be able to display a satanic tree (if such a tree exists) or any other religious decoration.

Fiscally, a conservative policy allows does allow a free market solution but when Wall Street owns the government, how free is the market really? I believe there should be a small cap on corporate lobbying if not eliminate it entirely. It places those with money in charge of the government and corrupts government. Only then will we have something closer to a free market. And as for your comment about "forcing banks to give money out to people to buy a home who can't afford it," the sub prime mortgage crisis was really nothing more than a complicated pyramid scheme designed to prey on and exploit homeowners. There was profit potential involved and as Tony pointed out, "the banks were not forced to write mortgages to people on several or more homes." And who paid the price for this? Certainly not the banking industry which Bush bailed out. The entire economy suffered as the bank CEO's gave out record breaking bonuses and used the bailout money to expand their footprints further and reinvest in controlling the government which bailed them out.

As for your comment regarding the conservative party's drug policy, no, I wouldn't expect them to be more in support. Drug use is "immoral" and not in line with "traditional values or behaviors". Conservative policy does not embrace new or evolving traditions or behaviors, it alienates and discriminates against people who do not conform.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 3:15 pm 
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Let me see if my dumb, farmer-raised hick ass can decipher the big bad language all the brainy people have around here:

Miner Mike wrote:
You raise a lot of great points Greg and I don't disagree with all of it. But again, I am talking specifically about social conservatism, which is a threat not only to our civil rights but to the advancement of society. You cannot advance as a society when your education system teaches you to ignore science, reject evolution, and live under strict government control.

Neither can "you" advance unless you're' one of the chosen to receive the "advancement" benefits. IMO, the conservative agenda supposedly (key word)
discourages government oversight in order to give people the OPPORTUNITY to advance.
Miner Mike wrote:
Overspending is an entirely different issue -- both the right and the left overspend.
They certainly do, which is why I'm a "tea-banging redneck" these days. We're not happy with anyone.

Miner Mike wrote:
Do you really think someone who believes the earth is 6,000 years old has the intellect required to lead this country through the 21st century?
OK, now I need an explanation. I personally believe that anyone who believes the earth is 6000 years old just may understand that you have to look back and learn in order to go forward.

Miner Mike wrote:
Fiscally, a conservative policy allows does allow a free market solution but when Wall Street owns the government, how free is the market really? I believe there should be a small cap on corporate lobbying if not eliminate it entirely. It places those with money in charge of the government and corrupts government. Only then will we have something closer to a free market. And as for your comment about "forcing banks to give money out to people to buy a home who can't afford it," the sub prime mortgage crisis was really nothing more than a complicated pyramid scheme designed to prey on and exploit homeowners. There was profit potential involved and as Tony pointed out, "the banks were not forced to write mortgages to people on several or more homes." And who paid the price for this? Certainly not the banking industry which Bush bailed out. The entire economy suffered as the bank CEO's gave out record breaking bonuses and used the bailout money to expand their footprints further and reinvest in controlling the government which bailed them out.

Can I cap Al Gore's ass then?
Really. I agree with whoever it was that said greed was the culprit.
The Founding Fathers put together an almost perfect system. We took advantage of it and f*$#d it up.

Miner Mike wrote:
As for your comment regarding the conservative party's drug policy, no, I wouldn't expect them to be more in support. Drug use is "immoral" and not in line with "traditional values or behaviors". Conservative policy does not embrace new or evolving traditions or behaviors, it alienates and discriminates against people who do not conform.


OH my goodness. You know, the older I get, the more apathetic and callous I get due to statements that like last sentence. The only "discrimination against those who do not conform" I've seen in the last 20 years belongs solely in the hands of self-righteous liberals who think they know better how to control everyone else's life. The loss of traditional values and behavior is the culprit of the "me, me me!" society we have to put up with today. Just my $.02.

~Shana the fossil.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 6:29 pm 
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It was fun having the religious zealots on the tour. Always fun "corrupting" young minds with facts, history , and science on the formation of anthracite. Imagine what the conversations were after they left. Blasphonmy !!!! lol


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 6:56 pm 
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the coal was put there because the big man upstairs said thats where it needs to be...... thats it kids dont ask any more questions....... :roll:

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 7:16 pm 
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Tony, according to this article, you might have offended a majority of the Republicans on your tour after pointing out the age of that anthracite seam! :lol: Just think of how many children are corrupted every day on these mine tours -- someday they will actually learn to think for themselves and become dreaded libertarians, liberals, or gosh, even independents! Heck it seems that is even offensive to half of the American population! :o I guess we truth seekers are the minority. :x

http://www.gallup.com/poll/27847/majori ... ution.aspx

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:22 am 
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It is correct to make a distinction between social and fiscal conservatism. As each can and does exist separate from the other.

I should start off by being clear I’m pretty much on the extreme right of both issues. And I understand that society is a bell-curve and there are extremes on both ends with the mass of the population being in the middle.

An organized society by its very nature will dictate what actions are proper and improper within that society. If a society fails to dictate these boundaries it will fall into anarchy and new societies will form for mutual protection. Many of those actions will have a moral appeal, if the society has a religious framework.

I fail to understand why it is in high-style to ridicule those in society who advocate social restraint for the benefit of the whole. Now granted there are idiots and fools on the far right who do not make for good examples. Some are self-serving and some who would do the cause well to kindly keep their mouths shut. But their must be a right extreme to counter the left extreme.

As the Federal Government and Courts have taken upon themselves to meddle on many social issues that would have been well left to the States, these social argument are now national news. And that may not be a new idea.

The argument has been made that the extreme right is trying to slow or prevent social progress, or limit personal liberty. I would ask which social issue is considered progress? (Obviously the abortion issue is touted as a limit on personal liberty and it is far beyond the scope of this forum to debate that issue or any specific issue.) Societies historically have progressed to a point of prosperity and security and then begin to decay. Mankind left to his own devices will follow his most basic lust. That is hardly progress.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:23 am 
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Quote:
Do you really think someone who believes the earth is 6,000 years old has the intellect required to lead this country through the 21st century? Or as Sarah Palin says, that the Iraq war is an act of God?



The direct answer to your question is simple, it depends on their evidence. Just because a person believes in a 4 Billion year old Earth, doesn’t in itself prove their intellect. To the second question the answer is maybe and maybe not.

Now I’m quite conversational in long-earth theory, but based on the total body of evidence I find it to be fantasy for adults. Not really any different from reading Tolkein, and much more entertaining.

It’s difficult to communicate personal observations of things that are beyond natural explanation. That coupled with the fact that long-earth is not beyond discussion and Darwinian Evolution does not answer all the questions. Leaves me to conclude it is not the best fitting theory.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 6:09 pm 
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Well one group did have an answear for the age of anthracite. It was so far fetched ( IN MY OPINION) that Ive forgotten what the story was. Science is science. If anyone had any alternative facts, Id more than welcome them. Just thought some of us would get a kick out of that. But then again after you load the car. Some people would just have to ask, which way are we going. ?? At first id answear. Then after so many times Id just look at the opening, and look up at the hoist house. And give them that dumb look !!! But that could be a topic in itself. Dumbest questions asked on a tour.... Im sure banks has a few...as well as the No 9 boys. Scarry to think you actually have to take people like that underground and be responsible !! Well I think Im up to a nickels worth....so Ill stop.


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