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 Post subject: Civil war
PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 7:04 pm 
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Being a history fan in general. recently the civil war era has striked my interest. Learning only what they taught in high school, I was under the impression that slavery was the primary cause of the civil war. Well Ive recently learned that is was only a secondary cause. And slavery was to end with in the south with in the decade leading up to the civil war. As the industrial revolution was replacing agriculture in the south. And in an industrial setting it would be far cheaer to pay people. Then provide living corters, food, etc.
But rather than slavery the war was about states rights. More exactly collecting taxs in one state, and spening it in another. Even Robert E Lee did not decide on joining the southern military till his beloved state of Virgina was attacked. Nor did Jefferson Davis favor a war. After the war both spent some time in prison. But were released and went on to successfull careers in business and public service. I realize it was more complicated than what a mere paragraph could explain ( above). But guess this is just a case of hearing only part of the truth. What history books in public schoolds teach.
The book went on to provide some fictional history. As if the south had won. Or were allowed to suceed. Britain and France were sympathetic toward the south. Both would have supported the south. And maybe even lead to a war between the union and Britain ( we threatened it if britain offically recogniced the confederate states. The south would have sided with Britain and France in WW 1. The north- Germany/Austro Hungarian empire. Germany would have certainly have won with the little help the north provided. The treaty of Versai would have never been written. Hence Germany's economy would not have been devastated. Hence Adolf Hitler and WW 2 in europe would not have happened. I love the what if;s of history. Heres an interesting question. What if the anthracite industry had invested in the industry , and US never developed an oil based energy policy ?


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 8:15 pm 
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There is enough speculation in one post there to keep a whole board going for months.

I'll just make a couple of points.

Some of your facts are new to me. Especially the part the Slavery would have ended by 1870 - 75. I would have put the number another 20 years later, but still a valid point.

The North would not have stayed intact, either. There was talk out in the "Northwest" (Indiana, Illinois and Iowa) of splitting and forming another country too.


I don't like to debate the war, but I have some expertise:

http://www.indianacavalry.org/7th/home.htm

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 9:27 pm 
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i tend to subscribe to the idea that fundamentally, the war really centered around two very different economic systems: agricultural and industrial.

additionally, if the south followed the north in industrialization, as they had begun to during the antebellum period, they would potentially have a large source of inexpensive labor. many industrialists and political leaders in the north were concerned that manufactured goods from the south could become serious competitors to those of the north, competitors that the north would never be able to compete with. the north decided to snuff that possibility out by turning the issue into one of humanitarianism.

very rarely are large scale wars based solely on idealism. they're usually driven by economic issues. its fundamental to the capitalist system.

(i'm trying hard to resist launching into a tirade about china and iraq and f***ing liberals......)

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 7:44 am 
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John,

Interesting point and I mostly agree, however..........The industrial North, especially the Eastern Cities. Had an enormous supply of cheap labor, maybe cheaper than the South. Immigrants

Conditions in the Northern Factories were very harsh and poor. But then again both side of the discussion use the extreme examples.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 8:34 am 
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I've read so many books on the subject of "If the South would've won," that I can't remember mostly what they said.

I'll send this one out again for anyone interested in reading about the Civil War Era:

<i>Battle Cry of Freedom</i> by James McPherson is an EXCELLENT read on the subject.

~S

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 6:26 pm 
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Another interesting point is that Robert E. Lee was against slavery. And Abraham Lincoln was quoted as saying, "this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery." History has a way overtime of emphasizing certain facts and not always painting the complete picture.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 4:36 pm 
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Thanks Mike couldnt have sumed it up better


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 10:59 pm 
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Depends on how you interpret History, which is why it was always my favorite.
We all tend to not LEARN from it.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 8:16 am 
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The comment on Lincoln is accurate, but in this context is somewhat misleading. Lincoln was in no way pro-slavery, neither was his father. That is one of the reasons they moved out of Kentucky, when Abraham was very young.

The fact that Lincoln saw the breakup of the Union a larger problem than slavery, doesn't make him a support of the institution.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 7:28 pm 
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That may be true. But still fact not taught in school. States rights was the main cause of the civil war. Slavery just became a way to make it justified in the unions eyes. The victor gets to write the the history. While on the subject lets look at the sinking of the Luistania ( spelling ?) Britain and America claimed it was an unprovoked attack on civilians. And that was the way it stood till the late 90's early 2000's. Untill Robert Ballard found and explored the ship. On it was found that war munitions were being carried on it. Against the rules of war, and supported Germanies claim. On a side note some munitions were stamped " Bethelehem steel, Bethelehem Pa !!!


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 7:52 pm 
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:lol: OH, Bethlehem!?

I heard about Ballerd finding all that... thats pretty sweet they come from Beth-lem though!

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