Hi everyone I live in the southern part of British Columbia. We are blessed with hundreds of abandoned mines within a 30 minute drive of where I live. We have hard rock Copper, Gold, Silver and Lead mines mostly. They were abandoned mostly by 1020 when the smelters shut down. We had 3 large smelters within 20 miles! My favorite mine was the second largest in the word at the turn of the century Phoenix. I have spent months exploring miles of tunnels, stopes and raises there. Part of the mine is permanently frozen. There are many ore carts of different sizes and explosive boxes as well as many other artifacts there. I am collecting artifacts in the area and restoring them for a museum that I will open one day. I have a Eimco air powered locomotive, mine cars, an air powered chainsaw, explosive boxes and many other items. Recently I just finished restoring a 5x7 side tipping wooden ore cart. I have a channel on You Tube that I document and post mines that I visit.[url][/ http://bit.ly/BCMINES]

Yet another one taking equipment away from small time miners that could definately use it! LEAVE THE EQUIPMENT IN THE MINES SO SMALL TIME MINERS WITH THIER OWN MINES CAN USE IT instead of it all sitting somewhere in a 'museum' and rotting! Or at least offer it to miners that need it. Im not meaning BIG time mining companies that have thousands of bucks that can afford the equipment, im meaning the miners that have small mines and struggle to work them.

I have seen countless mines around my area here where they was completely STRIPPED of the equipment that was once in there and they was stripped within the past few years, not back when they was being worked. Matter of fact, i have found equipment in a few mines around here a few years back, and marked it a certain way, only to find a little while later that same equipment that i had marked in a particular way, sitting in someones yard or being in places it wasnt meant to be. I have even caught people in the mines removing the old equipment, rails, etc right down to the spikes and the ties burnt for firewood and have made reports on that. The individuals thus far have been caught and arrested and is probably doing time for theft and criminal trespassing. Some mines, if they are locked or are closed in some way, and they are entered, you CAN be also charged with criminal burglary( in most states i believe). In many ways its actually no different than breaking into a home since the mine still involves a door with some sort of lock or other means of being 'closed'. I actually caught a guy in one of my mines late this past year. He had broken the locks, tore off the door of the mine and started helping himself and had the balls to set up camp there. It was just so that that particular day i went up to check on the mine and found him there. Luckily i keep game cameras at all of my mines and on at all times recording. That was how i had proof in court that he did it and how he got indicted and sentenced. We charged him with criminal tresspass(trespassing on private property that was posted) which is a felony, criminal burglary(entering a locked or closed structure) which is another felony, breaking and entering a locked or closed structure which is another felony and since he broke the door off and the locks he was also charged with criminal property damage times TWO because he was also busting up the rails, which added two more felonies and theft times TWO since he was caught loading up stuff PLUS the rails he tore up. Count all that up and it becomes SERIOUS time. Needless to say he got 8 to 10 years for all that.

If i do happen to catch people removing stuff from any mines, or can prove what stuff came from what mine(and indeed i have my ways) i will definately file reports that no matter what mine it is or what locality it may be in.
This stuff really needs to remain there for the next miner that either takes over the patent or claims the mine can try and reuse the equipment, rails, etc. Also, forget about trying to sell it on Ebay too as i always check Ebay for that kind of stuff. And there are others that constantly monitor Ebay as well.

I dont know how the laws are in BC but im sure the laws are the same there as they are here in the US and nearly anywhere that has old mines. And in the US ,its actually a crime removing anything from the old mines unless you OWN the mine. Not as a CLAIM but owning the mine under a PATENT. If its a claim then you are stealing from whoever the land is managed by or is overseen by, and in the case of the US, thats the BLM or Forestry.

Hopefully, the right authorities will view that youtube posting and make the proper arrests or at least investigate it. Or just maybe the mine owners will recognize thier equipment and file reports. You have already made admissions on things you didnt realize that you admitted to. Especially posting stuff like that and admitting to stuff like that on sites like these that are monitored by certain regulatories.

So with all of this said, lets take a look at the facts here: First, what kind of documents do you have stating on how you obtained all of this LEGALLY?

A) Do you have written receipts showing it was purchased by you from the mine owners, if any or from the land overseer(whatever governmental agency oversees or manages public lands in BC and i know there is some agency that does that)?
And i dont mean just plain handwritten receipts, im meaning properly written receipts that are written properly(possibly typewritten or on some sort of reciept type document that can be gotten somewhere that sells or deals in legal document supplies, such as an office retail store) and notarized or whatever other form of forming LEGAL document that the BC views as being a LEGAL document.

B) Do you have written permission (again, a notorized or some other LEGAL form of written authorization given to you by the mine owner or land overseer) that allowed you to remove the stuff from the mines or did you just walk right in and start loading up like the guy i caught at one of my mines was doing?

These are the very things that just may be asked IF there was to be investigations so you may want to be ready for this. I happen to have involvement in the law enforcement field so thats how i happen to know so much about laws. The laws i dont know i can always find out just by making a few phone calls. Thats no matter what country or jurisdiction it falls into.

As you say you don't know the laws in BC. I do and I am not doing anything illegal. Mine owners do not own the land they only own the mineral rights. Equipment that was abandoned in mines over 100 years ago is abandoned and does not belong to the mineral rights holder. In BC. There are virtually no active small mines here any more. Stuff left in mines is being buried or rusting/rotting. It is much better to be in a museum that being left in the bush or in a mine. Most of the old equipment was sold for scrap.

Actually you are wrong! Whatever is left on the property STILL belongs to the property owner, no matter who the property owner is. The property is owned by some kind of entity, if not a private party then it will be a government entity that oversees the property. NO property in the world is actually NOT OWNED by some entity. Even areas one may think NOONE owns, such as islands in international waters is actually owned by an international treaty of some sort. This is just an example of course. But basically what you are making it sound is if someone just abandons a home then just ANYONE can go in the home and start loading up! Same with property. Its no different at all between the scenarios so yes you are doing something illegal! Theres been many right here in this state and quite a few in other states that was led away in handcuffs because they THOUGHT they was removing stuff from a mine they THOUGHT was just abandoned and not owned by some entity. Come to find out they found out the HARD WAY because the property was owned by the Forest Service.

Does not at all matter if "mine owners' own the land or not. An entity that may not even have anything at all to do with mining just may own the land, per se, maybe, a developer. LOTS of mine properties around here are owned by investors from other states that owns the land but yet never even seen the land they invested in. Does not matter if the mine equipment was abandoned yesterday or 500 years ago, it STILL belongs to SOMEBODY, either a private party OR the government in some way. Does not matter if theres active mines there or not youd STILL be stealing from SOMEONE. Maybe i should do some contacting there in BC and start getting certain regulatories involved!

You mentioned about MINERAL RIGHTS in your post so lets just touch on that for just a moment. First of all, MINERAL RIGHTS dont just involve the private property owner, it also involves the government. In straight claims, the claimant is only LEASING the mineral rights from the government since the government actually owns the land. NOW, all that equipment HAD to get into the mines in some way, as it did not get in there by itself. And someone HAD to purchase that equipment in order for it to get TO the mine property and INTO the mine. Following me so far??? NOW, since that equipment was purchased and brought in to the mine site by SOMEONE, then that means SOMEONE owned it at one time. NOW, heres the kicker and one of the laws i DO know very well since ive actually seen people get arrested for the very thing im about to fill you in on....

In straight claims: Whatever equipment, housing, etc is left ON or IN the mine site that is or was considered to be abandoned THEN becomes the sole property of the GOVERNMENT or property overseer. This only applies on CLAIMS that leased by the claimant from the governmental property overseer. Ive heard of people right here in my area that went to jail just for going out on government lands and picking up old tin cans and scrapping them and they went to jail simply because the law states that people are not suppose to picking up "historical item' on public lands. How they can say old tin cans are considered as 'historical items' makes no sense but the law is the law. And this didnt even occur on mine sites, just open public lands. Heres another example that is a perfect example of what im trying to say. Late last year a fellow was arrested because a BLM agent happened to spot an old mine car out in this guys front yard and the Officer happened to recognize that the mine car came from a certain mine site that belonged to the BLM. The Officer knew the area around where the mine is very well and im guessing happened to notice the mine car weas missing. When the Officer contacted the guy and questioned him about it, he could not produce any paperwork showing just how he obtained the mine car and no BLM records could be found that the mine car was sold or requisited of some sort and thus the Officer had no choice but to arrest him and charge him with theft. There are ways that many people dont know what to look for in identifying certain things in which law enforcement does and thats how the Officer knew that particular mine car came from that particular mine. Also, nowadays, things are marked certain ways and in certain areas that helps make those items identifiable but i wont go into telling anything about that. So with this I dont think i need to explain that any farther since it seems to be self explanatory all in itself.

In PATENTS, which are private properties that was perpetuated from the government:

Anything on this type of property is ALWAYS private and theres ALWAYS some type of an owner. This means that the equipment still belongs to someone. There are scenarios where a city, county or state happens to own the patent and this is because the prior owners of the property owed taxes on the property and the city, county or state seized the property which STILL makes the property OWNED by someone.

With all this said, and in the eyes of the law, mineral rights dont mean jack on things you are doing. You tell whatever officer happens to question you on this that "oh i did nothing wrong because the mine isnt owned and they only had MINERAL RIGHTS so that gave me the right to just go in there and start loading up" just may get you in handcuffs and led off to the nearest jail.

Im hoping all of this sinks in because somehow i KNOW the laws THERE are similar but ill be finding out when i make my contact calls.

You don't know anything about the law. Certainly not about Canadian laws. Property abandoned decades ago underground by companies long dissolved by people now dead is no longer private property. Say if you are out for a Sunday drive and you are a slog that tosses out his beverage container. You have now abandoned property that you once owned. Anyone can pick it up and it is not theft. Sure there may be some ether laws about removing historic artifacts in certain jurisdictions but none of these apply in my case.

Furthermore property owners don't own the mines. They may control access to the mines but they only own the surface rights. So you aren't trespassing when you are in a mine. However you may have trespassed to enter it. It any case in BC law states that a landowner in a rural area must put a legal fence around their property and post a no trespassing sign every 100 feet around the boundary for it to be legally posted. Only then is a person committing an offence by entering an enclosed area. I have never done this so I have never trespassed.

[QUOTE]You don't know anything about the law. Certainly not about Canadian laws. <<<<Property abandoned decades ago underground by companies long dissolved by people now dead is no longer private property.>>>>

This is where you are wrong. Property abandoned like (dissolved or whatever) that is collected directly by the government, meaning it goes directly to the government and under governmental control, unless another claimant comes by and reclaims it. It just isnt 'FREE" property that absolutely noone owns. Sorry to have to say this but its just not like that anymore and i dont remember that it ever has been. SOMEONE has to oversee it and thats where the government comes in, again, IF another claimant didnt tag another claim on it. So indeed youd be stealing from the Canadian Government OR whoever the new claimant is.

<<<<Say if you are out for a Sunday drive and you are a slog that tosses out his beverage container. You have now abandoned property that you once owned. Anyone can pick it up and it is not theft.>>>>

Thats an entirely different situation. ANYBODY can go along a street and pick up a soda can BUT if it is considered HISTORIC and lies on GOVERNMENT PROPERTY then yes it is theft, even if its a rusty nail.

<<<<Sure there may be some ether laws about removing historic artifacts in certain jurisdictions but none of these apply in my case.>>>>

In the eyes of the law it certain does since it sounds like its government property.

<<<<Furthermore property owners don't own the mines. They may control access to the mines but they only own the surface rights. So you aren't trespassing when you are in a mine. However you may have trespassed to enter it.>>>>

You really CANT be serious, dude! That is totally proposterous! Since the property owners dont OWN the mines then that means theres no such thing as patenting there, which, in turn, makes it governmental property of some sort. They are laying or had laid claims on it. Once a claimant either dies or stops paying thier royalties on the claim then it automatically goes back to the government and its up to another claimant to reclaim the property. And once you enter that mine, no matter what you do, your still TRESPASSING. In the eyes of the government they dont care if the mine is posted or not if they indeed own it, in which it sounds as though they do. They will still bring charges against you. Too many here have entered mines here and came out only to find Officers around the entrances waiting for the people to come out. That was when they was offered shackles and hauled to jail. And not many of these mines was posted either, BUT, on lawbooks it clearly states that its considered trespassing if one enters a mine thats owned or overseen by a government entity. Now, as far as private property owners, here, the legal thing on that is posted every 50 feet, however, ive still heard of a few arrested simply because the mine owner pushed it and the trespasser was caught red-handed.
The claimant doesnt own the surface rights, no, the government does or whoever the claimant went through in order to legalize or lease the claim. Surface rights are rights to BUILD on the site and use the surface for other than mining purposes while MINERAL RIGHTS only give the claimant the right to search and extract minerals. Two complete different things. Usually, if its on CLAIMED land, that is land owned by the government, you are not given surface rights to the land which therefore you cannot legally build a permanent structure on the land without first going through tons of red tape and getting the government to approve what your building, which is a very longgg process and very hard to do. If you are granted the right to build then all of that must be removed from the land once you relinquish the claim or the government fines you and/or they retain the buildings. Surface rights dont at all mean you cant cross or enter the property IF its within legal limits. Some people have been arrested for trespassing on government lands too at times.
NOW, as for mineral rights, which is usually all a claimant gets, you are only allowed to search and dig and remove minerals to show for profit.
Usually with a patent, such as a few of my mines are, you get surface, mineral and usually water rights, if you have water on the property and if you have or get the proper documents for the rights to the water. But this is all way out of context on what this thread is about.


<<<<It any case in BC law states that a landowner in a rural area must put a legal fence around their property and post a no trespassing sign every 100 feet around the boundary for it to be legally posted. Only then is a person committing an offence by entering an enclosed area. I have never done this so I have never trespassed.>>>>

Does that include the mines? Im thinking not since you just stated that people there cant OWN mines. If so, then that part of things is totally irrelevent and has nothing to do with the mines. But it clearly sounds to me you have trespassed on government property plus removed government property. And did it willingly meaning you had all intentions of doing it, however, you probably didnt know it was government property you was on and in but in the eyes of the law, not knowing usually doesnt matter. Just like someone buying a stolen car but the buyer doesnt know the car is stolen but guess what? He still goes to jail. Same type of scenario just a different situation.



But anyhow, im in the process of finding out. Ive already discussed this with a few authorities there so we will see what happens. I know for a fact the laws are the same there and any land 'dissolved' by prior owners becomes owned by the government in some way so either way you are doing things illegally. No matter what you say or try to tell me theres no way in hell youre allowed to just start stealing artifacts from properties there. Please, please, PLEASE come to the US and try that.

You are trespassing no matter what. The property is still owned by SOMEBODY. I will just leave it at that and have the authorities there handle the situation since, from im understanding by them, they just may be preparing to. I know for a fact they will be checking out the video because the fellow i spoke to over the phone said hed make it an effort to do just that. What they will do after that is entirely up to them.

I wanted so bad to make a copy of the video from in the thread here but i didnt since i believe this site has copywrite protection for its content, however, Youtube does not and neither do you have copywrite protection filed so in that case it is safe to copy in case the video becomes deleted.

And i know the law much much more than you think. As i stated in an earlier post im heavily involved in the law enforcement feild so i HAVE to know the laws and have the proper resources available for those laws i dont know, such as i have been resorting to the past couple of days.

You are a idiot and a windbag, not to mention a babbling idiot I and not going to waste any more time reading your posts or responding to your ridiculous posts!

I might be an 'idiot' or a 'windbag' but at least i know what im talking about. I already found out what i already knew by contacting the authorities up there. As i said i KNEW i was right about the laws up there. They said that if people are removing artifacts from a mine property and they dont have the proper access or paperwork showing ownership or a claim then the people absolutely have no right removing ANYTHING from the sites. From what im understanding, they will be investigating. Dont be surprised when they come knocking on your door here fairly shortly and dont say i didnt try to help you or give you fair warning.

I'd love to see statutes referenced regarding entering mines, especially those on BLM or USFS land which is otherwise unrestricted to entry. I suspect that you may be mixing up patented versus unpatented claims, and do not understand the fact that unpatented claims do not restrict physical access, other than that which causes property damage (breaking and entering), or that which is restricted by 30 CFR for active mines falling under the purview of MSHA. Unpatented claims control mineral rights only.

You are operating some of your properties, right? If these are under an LLC or other entity, you'd be wise to understand 30 CFR or risk opening yourself up to fines for unsafe operation, lack of employee training, or other issues. Given as none of your operations show up on the MSHA MDRS for Arizona as of a few days ago, a problem may exist here.

I also find it interesting that you call for him to leave old equipment in mines for use by future miners, but also call said equipment "government property". Which is it?

In the eyes of the law, those statutes are regardless of what mine it is or whether its active or dormant. Please do not try to tell me the statutes of anything since i have mentioned earlier that i am involved in the law enforecement field (in ways i cannot and will not say) but believe me i DO know the laws. My suggestion to you is to study the statutes of Arizona again, and not just regarding mining statutes but also in TRESPASSING statutes. These also outline mines!
And just FYI, any open mines ON BLM and/or Forest Service properties ARE restricted and you CAN be arrested for entering. This is where the statutes on TRESPASS come into play. If you notice when they 'barr up' mines with fences or whatever, they also post DO NOT ENTER or NO TRESPASSING signs. Why do you think they do this??? Because its ILLEGAL to enter, Thats why. Those mines that do not have signage or closures in any way does not at all mean they are not included in the NO TRESPASS statute! It just means those mines have not yet been reclaimed yet and closed. As i have said in prior posts right in this very thread, i have personally witnessed people being arrested for entering mines on BLM AND USFS administrated lands. All we did was sit and wait until the persons came out of the mines then on the handcuffs went so again dont try telling me that entering mines is UNRESTRICTED. This goes for ANY mines, whether patented or UNpatented. Only the statutes are in different areas of the book.




I believe i mentioned all of this and even thouroghly explained in in a prior posting.



Does not apply to me. Thats ONLY if you have employees in which i do not. I know all about the MSHA, OSHA, ADEQ and other various agencies that are involved with mining operations, but again, none of these apply to me since they do not regulate private party mining operations, only mining operations that fall under corporation titles. Private party operations cannot do nearly as much environmental damage as the large corporation mining operations can and do, thus is why those agencies usually dont bother with private parties, Also, I do not recall mentioning previously that i was under an LLC or corporation title, thus again your arguement is totally irrelevent and i have no 'problems'.
Lastly, i never mentioned what my operations are or were, nor did i give or offer any information as to the names of my operations or how i operate my operations, or where my operations (coordinates) are in Arizona,thus, of course, you would not find it on record. Also, wouldnt you need my full name in order for anything to show on a record???
Your argument still remains irrelevent.



Thats EXACTLY what i said! He admitted he was STEALING. He also stated that the mines are not privately owned in BC, meaning there is no such thing as patenting, which only means it HAS to be government property... thus hes stealing... FROM the government! Isnt that enough to be self-explanatory?

Seems you must be as bad as he is, otherwise you wouldnt be on this thread trying to protect him.

Now, with all of this said, if you wish to take me on further, and THINK you can win, then lets do it! Im all up for the game.

Again, you are failing to name specific statues restricting access to abandoned mines. Please find and cite, or stop wasting my time with hearsay.

I have never once seen a bat-gated mine posted. I spend most of my time in Missouri, where bat-gating mines is so uncommon as to be a non-issue (I know of two complexes with bat gates installed, one is one USFS property and the idiots they hired did it wrong and actually created a more hazardous situation than leaving that adit open), but my experiences out west indicate that mines on public land are not posted. Additionally, I'm impressed that you know of abandoned mines that are even remotely accessible to law enforcement! If, as it sounds like, you called LE and wasted hours of their time because some guys felt like going into a mine on PUBLIC land at their own risk, then you are part of the problem. The word 'busybody' comes to mind.

I don't need specific operation names to find what MSHA lists as active, and if you think otherwise, you are very unfamiliar with the mining industry and what laws and regulations govern it. I suppose I could go through the LR2000 database and find all of your claims; your name is not relevant for that.



I don't take equipment without the mine owner/operator's consent. I actually know him indirectly elsewhere; he works with mine owners when applicable.

Shall we find out about you also? If the right info comes across the table, you just may be on your way to jail just like he may be. He never once mentioned anything about MINE OWNERS, he simply said there are no MINE OWNERS in Canada, only CLAIMANTS. CLAIMANTS are not OWNERS, they are only CLAIMANTS. Again hes stealing from the canadian government!

Please see your doctor and have your meds adjusted.

BC guy, I watched your channel on YouTube and am a subscriber. Great work, that hard rock stuff is hardcore. Those verticals & just the nature of hard rock mines kind of terrifies me. Headframe Hunters, we actually talked on YouTube about a year ago haha. I remember your username on there. It was on a video about Pa. mining.