Politics and goverment are a touchy subject for me. The blabber side of me tends to come out. And bringing it back to the purpose of the board. ( I love getting carried away lol) Look at MSHAW ( or whatever there called now and PA DEP) Yes way way back there were needs for rules and regulations. But after 100 years I believe there are enough safeguards in place in the industry. Look at this whole tracking mess ? Enough laws. The industry by its very nature is dangerous. Always has been always will be. Your dealing with mother nature ( geology) the one thing that can never be tamed. The industry will never be a utopia, nor will the earth as a whole. So why make everybody miserable, & poor in the process ? of trying to form one. Yes enforcement is an issue. But does it have to be with a club ( ie draconioan methods) Im sure not every MSHAW of DEP inspector is bad. But the agencies as a whole tend to be. Just more examples of the goverment wasting our time and money pursuing issues they have no idea about. Many tend to be " book smart" ( applying this to most goverment agencies). But in the real world its not what you know from a book. But rather experience gained in the field that makes a person knowledgeable.

The knowldege base of mine safety is constantly changing, and I doubt that we will ever know enough.

The idea of an industry wide watchdog that creates a level playing field across all mines is a very good idea. If it was up to me it would be an industry based watchdog. Government and Unions both have serious problems. Mostly steming from power, politics and corruption.

Safety rules add significantly to operating cost. And without a watchdog, some if not most operators would cut corners. The watchdog sets and enforces the same rules in all mines and everyone has the same operating cost. It takes the financial benefit out of running a dangerous mine.

To this point we will all agree. Where the problem comes in is MSHA is a government agency, with all of the common problems of a large buracarcy. They are under a certain amount of scrutinty from the public and Congress. When the poo hits the fan as it did at Crandell Canyon, or Sago or Quecreek. There is massive finger pointing and blame to go around. Not to mention Armchair Mining. After the fact it is easy to see what went wrong. MSHA also tends to do surgery with the finess of an 19th Century Army Surgeon.

If all of the present rule were followed and it was a pure accident, some Senator with a stack of families in the background will be on the evening news demanding action, ( to ensure he gets re-elected. )

If some engineer somewhere has an idea that might have prevented the accident. Some Senator with a stack of families in the background will be on the evening news demanding action, ( to ensure he gets re-elected. )

If it was a Non-Union Mine. Some UMWA Official with a stack of families in the background will be on the evening news explaning how this mine would have been safer if it was a Union Mine. ( to ensure he gets re-elected and has the $$ to push his agenda. )

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I don't have all the answers.
I don't even know all the questions!

Heard that MSHA District 1 ( Eastern Pa) has done something to stir up Banksy.

Anty is the Red-Headed Step Child at MSHA. They are a small segement of the overall U/G industry. And anyone with half a brain and one trip into an Anty Mine will know they are a compeletly different beast.

The problem is the District 1 Manager has to be willing to stand between the rest of MSHA and the Anty Industry, when it comes time to write the rules. And defend the Anty Mines when they Bitty Rules will not work.

Adding to this problem is the size and the political power of the Anty Industry. Or the lack thereof.

Out here in District 9, a small mine will be 200 to 300 people. There are 6 or 7 such mines here in Indiana, not counting the Western Ky and Illinois portions of the District. I don't know the figures for Anty Employment be I think it is well less than 1000 people and most likely 400 to 500 Total.

Essentially the District 1 manager has to be willing to take a stand and rish his career for what amounts to 1 or 2 mines in any other District. That there is even a District 1 is significant and some indication that MSHA knows there is a difference.

What the Anty operators are going to have to do is try and muster as much politcal power as possible and hope that it is enough.

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I don't have all the answers.
I don't even know all the questions!

I agree with your whole opinion. Goverment and the unions have agendas of there own. ( not slamming the unions) And your 100 million percent correct in saying they have to get some political might. But unfortunately my observations of the anthracite industry's image in northeastern Pennsylvania have been negative. Many recall the horror stories and have made mining a four letter word. Plus the tree hugers have added to that momentum. ( the eradication of any historic mining sites through my nemisis GROWING GREENER) Through all the horror stories, Many have forgotten the conditions in Europe during anthracites height. Yes the mines WERE very unsafe in most instances. But we had no starvation to the extent they had in Europe. We had none of the political problems they had. And we had no civil wars. So was the anthracite a means to and end ( starvation, etc) definately YES. And by the 50's mining was a very good paying and much safer occupation. But unfortunately anthracite was on its death bed in the Northern field. Also the first set of laws were enacted to insure its final death. Clean water laws, bonding rules and regulations. And yes with the exception of Congressmen Dan Flood the loss of political might or influence. The way it has been explained to me is anthracite mines are a pain in the a** to DEP & MSHA. Due to the uniqueness of the industry. And because of that everything is being done to end it. Once again the little guy gets screwed.- Tony

The problem as I see it is no body wants to stick there neck out for the Anthracite industry. Were a bunch of hard working people who love what we do. The Government is ruining that in a hurry though. What other Industry is it commonplace for the Inspectors to out number the employes at a mine sight? Where not asking to get away with murder but a set of regulations that apply to the buisness would be nice. There have been times were I have been that upset that I couldn't eat or sleep over whats going on here. Recently it's gotten to the point that I'm poping Asperins and Tums like Dr. House. I'm not saying that the regulations are B.S. they have there place but not here.

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"We don't look for any money all we look for is a little help and the only help we get is for the government to shut us down and if you go to the gas station and buy the gas you'll see why..........................you'll see why"

Mike you know the problem first hand. Funny looking back to circulars ( federal goverment) from the 60's the US goverment said it was imperative to national security to save the industry ( water problems at that time). How things change!! And not for the better. As I said the little guy gets screwed. Im sure if a multinational company wanted to deep mine. And they had the politicians in place. They would be welcomed with open arms. But then again this country has a bad habit of forgetting those that bulit the country, And make it what it is today ( including current people that does this) Look at our record of how we treat our veterans ? By 1957 Scranton which was known as the anthracite capital of the world. was the most hostile place to do deep mining. Its own mayor ( Hanlon) sent a detatchment of local policemen to close a mine. ( long story) The poor guy that owned the mine spent two years getting the mine open. Spent money out of his own pocket paying 50 men's salaries. Buying supplies from local businessmen. Even though the mine wasnt producing yet. And that was the thanks he got !!! Look at the natural gas industry.. They pretty much do there own thing. ( not knocking them) why ? because they have the poltical might ( $$) Like you said let people work. Make an HONEST living !!! Maybe thats the problem though. Hard working !!! Not on welfare ( not knocking that either but to many people receive it that CAN work) Not living off the system !!! And people wonder why this country is in the shape its in !!!

it seems like for years MSHA has been trying to get "educated" people in their ranks... i think they have seen the err of their ways, last november a flyer came out requesting experienced miners especially those with electrical experienced to apply for MSHA positions... so i did! i passed all their tests and im on the list waiting for a position. so hopefully the time will come when inspectors will have a better knowledge and actual mining experience rather than a college education.

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